"In three days I shall no longer be here . . . . Say the Kaddish for me." Elie's father said that on page 73 (small book) before an ambulance was going to send him to the hospital. Then it says, "These were terrible days. We received more blows then food; we were crushed with work. And three days after he had gone we forgot to say the Kaddish."
What is the significance of "We forgot to say the Kaddish?"
On Yom Kipper, The Day of Atonement, Eliezer didn’t fast. Why do you think his father did not let him fast? “And I nibbled on my crust of bread. Deep inside me, I felt a great void open inside me.”(Page 69 on the newer book) What does this passage mean?
I think the significance that they forgot to say Kaddish was that now they cared more about their own survival more than anybody else. It was all about surviving right now, not about who didn't survive. I think it also shows that the inmates were getting desensitized when they no longer cared about their friend's death. Before, in the earlier parts of the novel, they said Kaddish for the dead. Now they don't even say Kaddish for their friends.
Especially when times got harder, self-perseverance soon became the top priority. This might also suggest that they cared less about religion since Kaddish was a Jewish chant.
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My Question:
On p. 84 of the bigger book asks "So we were men after all?", what makes Eliezer say this and why? What's the significance?
"I've got more faith in Hitler than in anyone else. He's the only one who's kept his promises, all his promises, to the Jewish people." What's the significance of this quote?
Elie starts to rebel against God and refuses to celebrate the Jewish New Year in this chapter. However, he does not entirely lose faith in god because he still questions God’s sense of justice and blames him for allowing the concentration camp to exist: "Why, but why should I bless Him? In every fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits? Because He kept six crematories working night and day, on Sundays and feast days?” I think Akiba Drumer plays an important role to tell the readers that losing faith equals to death. People like Akiba Drumer lose their faith when they start to believe that it is impossible to escape the evil of the concentration camp so they eventually won’t have the will to survive. "It was impossible to raise his morale. He didn't listen to what we told him. He could only repeat that all was over for him, that he could no longer keep up the struggle, that he had no strength left, no faith." Elie’s experience in the hospital shows that it was difficult to trust anyone in the concentration camp. When one of the prisoner advices Elie to escape the hospital before there was another selection, Elie doubts his purpose and does not know who to believe. --------------------------- My Question: what is the significance of this quote? "'Shall I still be able to use my leg?' He was no longer smiling. I was very frightened. He said: Do you trust me, my boy?' I trust you absolutely, Doctor.'"
Richard Sun Question: Akiba Drumer lost his faith in god and he doesn't pass both selections. What is Akiba Drumer's death's significance? --------------------------- I think the significance of Akiba Drumer's death is that losing faith equals to death. When Akiba started to believe that the Hitlers were going to eventually kill all of them, marks the end of his life because he no longer have the will to survive.
Elie Wiesel had to have a operation on his foot. He made it sound that it was very serious, like that me might be ampuatated and never walk again. But instead, the doctor just poked a hole and squeezed the puss out. Do you think Wiesel was still scared after that he would not be able to live again?
I knew a rabii...He was always praying....He recited entire pages from the TAlmud, arguing with himself, asking and answering himself endless questions. One day, he said to me: "It's over. God is no longer with us."
So even someone who tries so hard to keep the faith can fail. What is the significance of this.
Adam: I think Elie's father is either also losing his faith in God, or simply feels that the old traditions will not hold here. I think Elie feels a "great void" open in him because he is truly defying God, and truly losing belief.
Question: "I began to laugh. I was happy. I felt like kissing him. At that moment, the others did not matter! They had not written me down." [page 72 big book] What do you think this quotes signifies?
Adam: On the day of Atonement Elie chose to eat instead of fast. He chose to do this because the little bit of string connecting him and his faith was breaking so he felt that he had every right to disobey his faith. He did not care anymore for his faith because of all the pain and torture he has witnessed. He questions why God would do such a thing and that he is more powerful then God. He believes his future is in his hands and God is not needed. The part “And I nibbled on the crust of bread. Deep inside me I felt a great void open inside me.” In this part after he chose to ignore the normal ritual of fasting he felt a hole open somewhere inside him. The hole is the missing presence of God in him because he is slowly distancing himself from God.
What is the significance of the knife and spoon that Elie’s father passes down to him?
In this section, we read that Elie is really beginning to lose his faith. His innocence being torn part to part from seeing more and more horrific images. He claims that he's seen a devouted rabbi also lose his faith. I think because Elie is losing his own faith, he's trying to make others accompany him as well.
Frank: I do not think that Elie is scared, since he has lost his faith. Elie was a devout Jew, which means his religion was an important part of his life. So whe he lost his faith, he basically lost himself, he was not Elie anymore. So i do not think that he cares whether he lives or not anymore, since he does not care where he goes in the afterlife.
I think the quote holds great significance. Firstly, it was spoken by a person in the infirmary who was suffering greatly from dysentery. This in istelf holds significance because the person with dysentery has already lost all his hope and faith. Maybe this represents what will eventually happen to everyone else no matter what happens in the concentration camps, no matter how long they manage to survive. Also, it shows how the people are losing faith completely. They even believe more in their enemy then they do in their own God; they say their enemy has kept more promises than their God. It also shows how much they have changed in the little time that they have spent in the concentration camps. Before, they wouldn't have even thought of questioning God, but their plight has dehumanized them into people who don't follow their religion anymore. Forgetting about their religion was a major theme in this chapter; there are many instances when Wiesel shows how he has lost his faith. In the beginning of the chapter, he says he did not fast during Yom Kippur, and he turned this into an act of rebellion against his God. Would you willingly defy your God if you were in his place? Also, they forgot to say Kaddish for Akiba Drumer when he fell victim to selection. If they had been devout Jews like they had been before, they probably wouldn't have forgotten.
My Question "Deep inside me, I felt a void opening." (pg 69, big book) What does this mean? What is this void that Wiesel speaks of?
to adam: I think the void was the one that came when he finally broke with God, because he is, probably for the first time in his life, ignoring the fast.
Mine: The part where Elie says "Praised be Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine altar?" really scares me, because he has this wicked sarcasm that cuts through and chills your bones.
Once Eli had forgotten to say the Kaddish for the man, is it now the time when faith and religion have no impact on them anymore, and that it is pbasiclly every man for himself now.
Adam: I think his father did not let him fast mainly because they are already so hungry and near straving point and fasting would just be a faster and more cruel way to die.
The father did not let Eliezer fast is because his father lost faith in god. Eliezer's father thinks that survival is the top priority now, and that his faith in god isn't as important as now. What I found interesting in the quote was when he said "a great void open inside me." Eliezer basicly has no more possesions on him anymore. The only thing he has left is the faith in god, but when he didn't fast he loses his faith and there is nothing much left in him. From this point on Eliezer is just a human body with nothing inside.
On page 71, (small book) it says "'Look, take this knight,' he said to me. 'I don't need it any longer. It might be useful to you. And take this spoon as well. Don't sell them. Quickly! Go on. Take what i'm giving you!' The inheritance." It implies that his father was going to die. However, his father does not die and escaped the second selection. What is the signifigance of this ironic scene and what do you think Elie learns from it?
---- Jasmine: I think the significance that they forgot to say the Kaddish is that they have begun to care more for their own survival than the well being of friends.
“I’ve got more faith in Hitler than in anyone else. He’s the only one who’s kept his promises, all his promises, to the Jewish people.”
Elie’s neighbor says this because he is indicating that all the Jews are going to die in the end. That was what Hitler has promised, to kill the Jews. His neighbor reminds Elie of the conditions they are in, and reminds Elie of how they are on their own, God isn’t there to help them. Elie has already begun to lose his faith in God, but when his neighbor says this, he questions himself about God even more.
Adam: I agree with Richard. I think that Eliezer's health is top priority; however, i disagree in that Eliezers father has given up faith. I think that he still believes in his god and still has faith; however, he believes that Eliezer needs to eat to stay strong so that he is able to work and live in the concentration camp
Chuni: Elie says this to show how it felt to live here. They had cleaned out the block to make it seem like what lived here was men, not a bunch of dirty animals, but Elie says this because they had not treated them like men, instead, they were treated like slaves, like animals.
The "void" opening inside of him was the heaviness of guilt. He knew that he should have fasted, but he went against it.
I assume that when you have done something that you had promised yourself not to do, you get this sickening feeling in your gut once you have done so.
=================================== My question:
"It was cold. We got into our bunks. The last night in Buna. ONce more, the last night. The last night at home, the last night in the ghetto. The last night in the cattle car, and, now, the last night in Buna. How much longer would ourlives be lived from one "last night" to the next?"
Whoa, look at all the "nights" in this passage. Does this have any meaning to the title of the novel? What does the term "Night" signify as the title anyways? Does it have any relation to this passage?
Eliezer said this when the Russians were approaching and the head of the block told them to clean the block so that the liberating army would “realize there were men living here and not pigs.” I think Eliezer said this because he didn’t think that they were “men,” they were being treated like trash by the SS officers. He doubted the fact that they were men. They were dehumanized the moment they entered the camp. They were like pigs and they couldn’t decide their fate. They lost their identity and were called numbers instead of names. The significance of this is that the German have been treating the Jews terribly that the Jews didn’t even realize that they were actually human beings. I think it is pretty creepy that one can’t distinguish oneself between a pig and a human.
on page 67 in the big book, it says "why, but why should i bless Him? every fiber in me rebelled. because He caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because He kept six crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath and the Holy Days?"
Does Elie hate God? Does he even believe if there is a God out there? What is the significance of this part, and what does it show the concentration camp is doing to him?
Elie's father did not let him fast because he, like many others in the concentration camps, had lost faith in his God. He thinks that God has abandoned them and that He is allowing all the merciless acts to be inflicted upon them. Now, instead of being the devout Jew he used to be, he puts survival as his top priority. As long as he survived the ordeal, he did not care about disobeying his duties as a Jew. This shows how much their life in concentration camps have changed their life in such a short amount of time.
Reuben: I think the significance of the spoon that Elie's father gave him was that usually when your parents pass away, they leave you your inheritance. Elie probably would have got a pretty big inheritance if the Nazi hadn't come and ruined his life. Instead, all his father could give him was a spoon. The situation show how desperate they both were. His dad was desperate to leave Elie with something, but all he had to offer were a knife and a spoon. Another significance is that a spoon and a knife were the best inheritance Elie could get in a situation like that. His inheritance would actually help him. If his father had given him a spoon and knife under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be much use. But, in a concentration camp, a spoon might help Elie get extra ration of food, and a knife is always useful.
On p. 84 of the bigger book asks "So we were men after all?", what makes Eliezer say this and why? What's the significance? First of all, the conditions in the concentration camps including medical treatment, nutrition, and living environment are poor. Even animals are treated better than the prisoners. In Night, a major theme is dehumanization and degradation. Eliezer believes that the Germans look down and take advantage on the Jews, because Adolf Hitler is their backbone to support them. This quote supports the theme, because Eliezer is certain about the Germans’ attitude of degrading the Jews to show that they are pure and superior. Eliezer loses his identity as a devout, religious believer of the Jewish faith, because now he is dehumanized and his thinking is more bitter and sarcastic. I think when the prisoners were given numbers instead of names, Eliezer already loses his identity and has fall into the Germans’ psychological trap.
finally the liberation army arrived at Burna and the Jews are close to freedom. They were all exacuted from the camps. Hours before the liberation army they cleaned the floors to show that man lived there not animals, however why did Elies ask "so we were man after all?" why is he unsure about themselves being men?
Richard: Akiba Drumer lost his faith in god and he doesn't pass both selections. What is Akiba Drumer's death's significance?
I think Akiba Drumer's death is significant because it tells everyone to teaches the other people in the camp to not lose faith, and to continue to fight for their freedom.
my question: "And my father? Suddenly I remembered him..." (p. 67 small book) What is the significance of this quote? Did he become a completely different person?
Matt, I think Eliezer is happy that his father wasn’t dead but it must be awkward giving the inheritance back to his father; that’s ironic. This may foreshadow that his father is going to die. Eliezer learns that there might still be hope for them. “Were there still miracles on this earth?”(page76 big book) He Still sort of cling to God.
In this chapter, Elie began to lose his faith in God. Akiba Drumer, had completely lost his faith, thinking that he wont get rescued from the concentration camp. A a result, he didn't pass both elections, and get executed.
RICHARD: I think Akiba Drumer's death signifies that losing faith is equal as death at the concentration camp. When you lost the hope of getting rescued, you lost your sense of survival.
(pg 73 of the small book) "Poor Akiba Drumer, if he could have gone on believing in God, if he could have seen a proof of God in this Calvary, he would not have been taken by the selection. But as soon as he felt the first cracks forming in his faith, he had lost his reason for struggling and had begun to die."
This passage is saying that religious beliefs provide hope for people to live. Indeed, but hasn't Wiesel already lost his faith? And his struggle for survival is greater than ever. Isn't the author contradicting himself then?
Jasmine: They were so tired and struggling with just surviving everything that they didn't ever sit down to think that they had promised to say the Kaddish; or they couldn't because they were focused on keeping themselves alive.
Adam: The void is when Elie finally separates from his belief in God's mercy. Before, he clung desperately to that one last string of hope; now, when he disobeys the fasting tradition on purpose, he is breaking ties with a God whom he feels does not care about him anymore.
In this chapter, Elie began to lose his faith in God. Akiba Drumer, had completely lost his faith, thinking that he wont get rescued from the concentration camp. A a result, he didn't pass both elections, and get executed.
What is the author trying to say?
The author is trying to tell us that if one is faithful and still has hope, they would have a better chance of surviving. Ellie didn't believe so much in God, but he remained very hopeful that he would be rescued, so he treated his body well. That let him pass both selections.
My question: On page 74, The Hungarian Jew said, "You mustn't rejoice too soon, my boy. There's selection here too. More often than Outside. Germany doesn't need sick Jews. Germany doesn't need me. When the next transport comes, you'll have a new neighbor. So listen to me, take my advice: get out of the hospital before the next selsction!" Is the Jew trying to get rid of Ellie, or was he telling the truth?
As the days go by in the concentration camp, more and more people are sent to the crematory. As this happens, Elie’s faith in God declines. Elie did not completely lose faith yet he blames God for everything that has happened: “Why, but why should I bless Him? In every fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits? Because He kept six crematories working night and day, on Sundays and feast days? Because in His great might He has created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many factories of death?” Elie rebels against God by refusing to fast on the day of Yom Kippur, because he believes that “there was no longer a reason to fast.” However, a Jew, Akiba Drumer loses his faith completely. His death reveals how important it is not to lose faith in God and in yourself.
Bess: pg 75 of big book Elie said "How kindly they treated me. Like an orphan. I thought: Even now, my father is helping me." What did he mean when he said his father was helping him?
My response: They pitied him, for what he was going through- the sure knowledge of the death of his father. Because they pitied him, they were nicer to him. They pitied him because of what his father was going through, so in a way, his father did something to make them be nicer to him. I think that’s what Elie meant when he said that his father was helping him.
robert: The sick man is pretty much doomed to die... he's lost all hope in life. His attitude and outlook is extremely gloomy: "Don't let yourself be fooled with illusions. Hitler has made it very clear that he will annihilate all the Jews before the clock strikes twelve" (pg 76, small book). Since he's going to die soon, in a sense, Hitler has killed him. I think he thinks that since he himself is going to be dead, why wouldn't the rest of the Jews die also? Up to his death, Hitler has been murdering and murdering Jews. I don't think the sick man sees any reason for Hitler to stop. The man's negative outlook and looming death only throws him further into the belief that Hitler will annihilate the whole race.
Even though Eliezer is starting to reject god and all the practices, do you think he can reject it completely? Does the religion still have some power over him?
I think that the quotes shows how the concentration camp is altering Elie's personality. The concentration camp is mainly made up of restrictions and limits; it's what slowly eats a person from the inside [psychologically]. Elie is trapped in the concentration camp, and he is slowly becoming selfish- not just him everyone else too. He only cares for his own survival. I believe that God has made us with this trait built in because if none of us are selfish, then we can't survive in the world. Another thing I noticed is people "losing faith" in the book. Although Elie blames God for his merciless actions, I think it is wrong to do so. Elie needs to be independent instead of always thinking that God will help him and keep him safe.If he was overly protected by God, then he cannot survive in such a harsh world. I believe that all of this is a lesson to be learned.
Haley: I think the author is trying to tell us that a person's patience has a limit. After any person waits long enough, his/her patience WILL come to an end- all humans are like that.
Ted Wu: I think the author says this because he wants to emphasize that the SS- officers had treated them as animals and not as humans. They have taken away their basic right to own property, or even to live!
To Chuni: This quote to me has a very strong meaning. "So we were men after all". It is significant because after all that had happened: forced labor, bad hygiene, the Germans still wanted to cover up everything and act like nothing had happened. Tried to act like the concentration camp was just a big hotel where "men" had actually lived at. Unfortunately, they did not evacuate the prisoners in the hospital, because if they did, the secrets of the camps would not have been revealed [so quickly].
Question: Do you think "three days after he had gone, we forgot to say the Kaddish" symbolizes or foreshadows anything? Do you think that it foreshadows the suffering of Eliezer? Or do you think it is just a symbolism of something important in the novel?
Chuni: Eliezer is being sarcastic here. The line spoken by the head of the block is ironic: "So that they'll realize there were men living here and not pigs" (80, small book). They were never treated like people at the concentration camps. Even animals were treated better than they were. Eliezer's mocking the head of the block, like "So now you're calling us men, when you have treated us worse than animals?"
james-Does Elie hate God? Does he even believe if there is a God out there? What is the significance of this part, and what does it show the concentration camp is doing to him?
Maybe he does hate God. Yes, I think Elie still sees God's presence, but he no longer has faith in him. He does not pray and does not fast, as a sign of rebellion. Because of the regulations in the concentration camp, it is completely changing his attitude and personality.
Adam: The main reason why i think Eliezer father didn't let him fast because Eliezer was already hungry and they needed the energy to work, they also had selection and if Eliezer was to weak then he could have been selected so his father wanted to prevent it from happening. While Eliezer was consuming the bread he felt " a great void open inside [him]"( 66 small book). I think this passage symbolizes that Eliezer does not believe in god anymore. Use to Eliezer would follow the customs and pray but now he does not and he doesn't believe in god either so a part of his old life has been taken away. Praying and customs did take up a lot of his life, it was like a part of him and now he does not believe or follow the customs, so there's something missing in his life.
Question: After the selection, their head black comforted them saying "nothing is going to happen."(pg. 69 small book) Why did their head block try to comfort them even though everyone knew their death? Their head block also tried to give them advice before the selection, why did he do that? Why does their head block care about what happens to them?
“What are You, my God?” I thought angrily.” “Why, but why would I bless Him? Every fiber in me rebelled. Because He caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because He kept six crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath and the Holy Days? Because in His great might, He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many other factories of death? How could I say to Him: Blessed be Thou, Almighty, Master of the Universe, who chose us among all nations to be tortured day and night, to watch as out fathers, out mothers, our brothers end up in the furnaces? Praised be Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine altar?” Those two quotes above differ greatly from these (in the beginning of the novel): “By day I studied Talmud and by night I would run to the synagogue to weep over the destruction of the Temple.” “I continued to DEVOTE myself to my studies, Talmud during the day and Kabbalah at night.” Elie used to be a devoted Jew that studied the Talmud and Kabbalah, but now he is questioning God. He is angry at God for having the Jews be the “chosen ones.” What exactly made him change?
"Why, but why would I bless him [God]? Every fiber in me rebelled.(67 big book)
Eliezer said this during Rosh Hashanah, which meant that it was the end of that year. The quote showed that Eliezer, after his long time in concentration camp, had lost all hopes to live. He refused to see God as hope. Eliezer even wants to rebel against God, which showed how depressed he is.
Will Eliezer regain his faith and believe in God once again?
“Why, but why should I bless Him? In every fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits? Because He kept six crematories working night and day, on Sundays and feast days? Because in His great might He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many factories of death?” (pg 64 small book) “It’s the end. God is no longer with us.” (pg 73) What do you think these quotes mean? How does the first one relate to the second one? I think that this, again, shows the theme of losing faith in God and the lost of hope. The relationship between the first and the second quote, I think is that after they start to doubt their God, they’re afraid that their God has left them. This is shown when the man says that “God is no longer with them”. Or the second quote could show that the lost of faith isn’t a process that only Elie’s going through. Rather, it’s something a lot of the Jews are going through. But in the end, will they regain their faith? Another interesting thought that occurred to me is, did the Germans do this on purpose? Did they just want to exterminate the PEOPLE who believed in Judaism, or Judaism itself the RELIGION?
"Why should I bless Him? In ever fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits?..." "I no longer accepted God's silence. As I swallowed my bowl of soup, I saw in the gesture an act of rebellion and protest against Him." Now, Elie does not only lose faith in God, but also starts questioning God and rebelling against Him. He does not fast when he is supposed to, and he doubts God. There are many examples Elie gives of the prisoners who loses faith and dies, which proves that faith is very important and it is what keeps the prisoners alive. I think the thing that keeps Elie moving is the fact that he does not want to separate from his father.
The character of Akiba Drumer is rather saddening. He doesn't appear much in the book - I vaguely remember twice - once, a while after they first arrived at the concentration camp. It is a place where his faith - the Jewish faith - does not survive as well. This character tries to find a way, an excuse of the reason why God is not salvaging him, and others from the hard labour and many tormenting deaths. The second is when he had been selected for the crematories, and he asks his friends to say the Kaddish three days later, for that it is when he is to die, but instead, because of all the work they do, they forget to say the Kaddish for him - forget about him altogether.
I think Akiba Drumer probably represents a typical Jew in the Holocaust - starting out as a normal, everyday Jew who went to the synagogue once a week and prayed during all the times, to seeing how his religion - what's been a part of him all these years, since he was little - all his beliefs being torn right in front of his eyes, and finally to completely giving up on Judaism and himself altogether and being sent to the gas chambers. He is a simple character - you don't know much about him, and he is only described about twice (I think) yet you sympathise with him - and realise what crisis he is facing.
I think that them forgetting to say the Kaddish for him is really big, because it's like completely forgetting a promise to a good friend - and specially, in this case, a promise on his deathbed. It shows the gradual dehumanisation of them - they no longer care or remember those close to them, but completely forget about them, due to a couple of days of hard work, abuse, and less food.
Kimberly: Elie changed so much because of the harsh treatment and cruelty at camp. Ever since he arrived at Auschwitz, he was forced to work, tortured, and starved; he didn't receive any mercy or kindness. Additionally, he witnessed the heatless murder of thousands of babies in the crematorium. This made him question the existence of his "merciful" God. His experiences at camp let him realize how cruel the world can be. He understood that although the Jews did nothing to deserve the harsh treatment, they can't do anything about it but pray to God, who won't do anything to help them. This realization caused him to conclude that praying to God was pointless, so he became angry at God for wasting so much of his time used for worship.
My Question: On page 81 of the big book, the patients in the infirmary tell Elie that "all the patients will be finished off on the spot and thrown into the furnaces," but they actually got liberated by the Russians. Either Hitler lied to the patients at the infirmary, or the patients lied to Elie. Why?
On page 80 of the small book, Why doesn't the people stay? They already said "For the liberating army." Why didn't Elie stay on the hosptital or go back to the hospital?
ADAM: On Yom Kipper, The Day of Atonement, Eliezer didn’t fast. Why do you think his father did not let him fast? “And I nibbled on my crust of bread. Deep inside me, I felt a great void open inside me.”(Page 69 on the newer book) What does this passage mean?
To the Jews, fasting was a way of showing your devotion to God. It showed that you were willing to go through whatever to please God. Now that Elie was losing faith in God, he also started to not care about the religious rituals, such as fasting. During Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah,Elie started to show his doubt in God and in his religion. He started to mock God and the way He treats his "chosen people." I think this is a turning point in the story because in the beginning of the book, Elie was a very devoted Jew who always went to the synagouge to pray and he studied the Torah thoroughly. Now after what he has gone through and what he has seen in the concentration camp, he completely became a different person and didn't care about God and his religion anymore.
Jasmine: "In three days I shall no longer be here . . . . Say the Kaddish for me." Elie's father said that on page 73 (small book) before an ambulance was going to send him to the hospital. Then it says, "These were terrible days. We received more blows then food; we were crushed with work. And three days after he had gone we forgot to say the Kaddish."
What is the significance of "We forgot to say the Kaddish?" --------------- I think that the significance was that Elie and the others have start to care more about survival than others. Now that he is in a camp, survival is more important than worrying about others.
My question: “And I, mystic former mystic, was thinking: Yes, man is stronger greater than God. When Adam and Eve deceived You, You chased them from the paradise…. But look at these men whom you have betrayed, allowing them to be tortured, slaughtered, gassed, and burned, what do they do? They pray before You! They praise You name!” (big book, 67,68)
Reading this quote, it looks like Elie has a hatred towards God, but is it really true? Does he really hate God now, or is it because he’s in a camp and has gone crazy?
“Look, take this knife,” he said to me. “I don’t need it any longer. It might be useful to you. And take this spoon as well. Don’t sell them. Quickly! Go on. Take what I’m giving you!” The inheritance. “Don’t talk like that, Father.” (I felt that I would break into sobs.) “I don’t want you to say that. Keep the spoon and knife. You need them as much as I do. We shall see each other again this evening, after work.” P.71 Is this false hope that Eliezer holds on to? How is the “inheritance” important? What does Elie’s father think will happen? Has his father given up?
pg. 63 to 80 question “Poor Akiba Drumer, if he could have gone on believing in God, if he could have seen a proof of God in this Calvary, he would not have been taken by the selection. But as soon as he felt the first cracks forming in his faith, he had lost his reason for struggling and had begun to die.” (Wiesel 73) Why does Wiesel seem to believe strongly in God in this passage? Does he get his strength for the hard work from believing in God? Why, then, does he doubt God’s sense of mercy on the Jewish people when things seem to be hopeless?
Adam: Maybe the "void" was where his religious beliefs used to be? Like, for example, after you've lost something you lived with for most of your life, you would feel an emptiness where it used to be. Forgetting to say the Kaddish, which was something important to the Jews, means that Elie's religious beliefs were pretty much destroyed by concentration camp life.
KK: I think this quote represents the selfishness Elie has developed since he arrived at the concentration camp. He no longer cares [as much] for the lives of others, but rather puts his own survival first. Elie may sympathize a little, but in the end, his happiness for staying alive prevails over all. At the concentration camp, the concept of "survival of the fittest," or Darwinism becomes part of everyone's thoughts.
"The last night in Buna. Yet another last night. The last night at home, the last night in the ghetto, the last night in the train, and, now, the last night in Buna. How much longer were our lives to be dragged out from one 'last night' to another?"
What is the significance of this quote and the author's use of the word "night"? Why does he repeatedly use "night," instead of, for example, "day?"
I didn't like this chapter at all. Things just seem to get worse and worse. Then again, there are always those time where soup is thicker. (I think that means it's better, sort of, right?)
My question is so: what is the significance of cleaning up the camp area before evacuating the place? The place has never been cleaned before, and although the officers said that they wanted to make it seem like people lived here, I think there is a reason otherwise. Also, Elie wonders if this makes them "men" again. Is there significance in this as well?
I agree with you, the two quotes both relate to the theme of losing faith. The first quote shows that Elie doubts the existence of god. The second quote shows that the Jews lost faith in god already. The only small difference between these two quotes is that in the first quote, Elie hasn’t completely lost his faith in god; he only doubts the existence. The Jews might regain their faith, but only under one condition: if they are freed from the concentration camps. Otherwise, I don’t think that the Jews will regain their faith because there is barely any chance that anyone will get out of the concentration camp alive. I think that the Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews more than the Judaism. Though, exterminating the Jews is basically exterminating Judaism. -------------------------------- In the earlier part of the story, the dentist that was going to take out Elie's golden crown, let him pass. When the Dr. Mengele was doing a selection, he let Elie pass too. The doctors seem to treat Elie better than the other Jews. Why?
Eliezer is no longer a believer; he had turned himself against God. Where is God? He asked. I’ve noticed how he doubts His mercy, and how the rest of the Jews praise him when He had put them in such a dreadful situation. As my own experience, I would have doubt His merciful. Sometimes there is a reason for something to happen. From a Christian point of view, God did not do this nor did He want some things to happen to us. It is us human that made each other like this, but we could pray and still have our faith in him. This is something I know, and had experience. In Eliezer’s situation, it’s much harsher than anything else. Little by little, I’ve noticed Eliezer change even more once he had ceased to be a believer. He no longer follows any services or festivals that they held, nor did he wish his father a happy new year because he does not believe. Though I would have agreed with him on this, but sometimes you should look at things other way. I believe he would be able to open up his eyes and truly see.
(p.67) And my father? Suddenly I remembered him. How would he pass the selection? He had aged so much... What does this show about Eliezer? Had he forgotten about his father? Will he forget his father existence if he did not remember?
In this chapter I can easily see that they are losing hope, but them, themselves are trying to give themselves hope. In the big book, page 76, the rabbi said, “It’s over. God is no longer with us.” Even the rabbi says like, the reader can tell by this chapter that their hope is gradually decaying. Also in this chapter, I have seen many “Everything will be all right”, this sentence have came reality in my mind. Also I started to think whether this sentence is a good thing or not. Would everything be all right to them? Or is it just an encouraging sentence? In the big book, page 73, Blockalteste said, “What is it now? Perhaps you think I’m lying? I’m telling you once and for all: nothing will happen to you! Nothing! You just like to wallow in your despair, you fools!” Why did he say that and became angry? Why did he say like that? What significance is that about?
james-Does Elie hate God? Does he even believe if there is a God out there? What is the significance of this part, and what does it show the concentration camp is doing to him?
A: Yes, Elie does feel that God has abandoned him and caused him to suffer. He feels that it is useless to pray to Him anymore, as it has been of no use, and no help has been given at all to him. As things get worse and worse in the camp, he struggles to maintain his faith in God, a faith that was once stable and unshakable. However, experiencing the many horrors of the Holocaust has greatly changed his view towards Him, and he resents how, according to what other Jews say, God has purposely caused the misery of the Jews, and he feels that God is actually cruel. Elie lost his innocence when he faced the terrors of concentration camps, and starts to question God’s existence. This contrasts greatly with the earlier Elie, who believed that God was omniscient and that God was good, and because God was everywhere, the world would logically be good to, but the Holocaust has caused him to rethink what he has been taught. If God was everywhere, why would there be places of pure evil, like concentration camps? I too, question the existence of an all-powerful being whom can control our lives, so I know how Elie must have felt at that time.
Q: Akiba Drumer had asked for his fellow Jews to pray for him when he dies, but the Jews forget about the importance for praying for a comrade during their bid for survival and doesn’t carry out the task they had promised. What does this show about the influence of religion to the Jews now? Why have they changed so?
Anthony: I believe he had forgotten that they were men. I guess it's because they were so used to be called as numbers, and had forgotten who they really are. In the concentration camp, they were treated as animals. Now, that they were called men. It felt strange to have the memories of when they are still treated as human, or as man. This is also what makes them become if they had stay too long in the concentration camp. It make them forget their own identity, but thing as the way they were treated.
Kathy: “And I, mystic former mystic, was thinking: Yes, man is stronger greater than God. When Adam and Eve deceived You, You chased them from the paradise….
But look at these men whom you have betrayed, allowing them to be tortured, slaughtered, gassed, and burned, what do they do? They pray before You! They praise You name!” (big book, 67,68)
Reading this quote, it looks like Elie has a hatred towards God, but is it really true? Does he really hate God now, or is it because he’s in a camp and has gone crazy?
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This hatred possessed by Elie towards God isn't going to last forever. He is just fed up with God making him suffer the pain at the concentration camp. At the concentration camp, he learns to become more pessimistic and emotional. In this time of his life, his emotions are more unstable, because he's at the age of adolescence. I don'think Elie forgot about faith in God, or else he wouldn't talk to God. If he talks to God, that means Elie still believes in the existence of God.I don't think he really hate God right now. I think it's because he has gone crazy. Everything is nightmare to him; everything is happening quickly. He thinks of this as a nightmare. He realizes how painful his life is right now. He couldn't really hate God, because he knows that without God, there wouldn't be the existence of anything. Everything is made by God.
74 comments:
"In three days I shall no longer be here . . . . Say the Kaddish for me." Elie's father said that on page 73 (small book) before an ambulance was going to send him to the hospital. Then it says, "These were terrible days. We received more blows then food; we were crushed with work. And three days after he had gone we forgot to say the Kaddish."
What is the significance of "We forgot to say the Kaddish?"
On Yom Kipper, The Day of Atonement, Eliezer didn’t fast. Why do you think his father did not let him fast?
“And I nibbled on my crust of bread.
Deep inside me, I felt a great void open inside me.”(Page 69 on the newer book)
What does this passage mean?
In Response to Jasmine.
I think the significance that they forgot to say Kaddish was that now they cared more about their own survival more than anybody else. It was all about surviving right now, not about who didn't survive. I think it also shows that the inmates were getting desensitized when they no longer cared about their friend's death. Before, in the earlier parts of the novel, they said Kaddish for the dead. Now they don't even say Kaddish for their friends.
Especially when times got harder, self-perseverance soon became the top priority. This might also suggest that they cared less about religion since Kaddish was a Jewish chant.
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My Question:
On p. 84 of the bigger book asks "So we were men after all?", what makes Eliezer say this and why? What's the significance?
Question: Akiba Drumer lost his faith in god and he doesn't pass both selections. What is Akiba Drumer's death's significance?
"I've got more faith in Hitler than in anyone else. He's the only one who's kept his promises, all his promises, to the Jewish people." What's the significance of this quote?
Elie starts to rebel against God and refuses to celebrate the Jewish New Year in this chapter. However, he does not entirely lose faith in god because he still questions God’s sense of justice and blames him for allowing the concentration camp to exist: "Why, but why should I bless Him? In every fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits? Because He kept six crematories working night and day, on Sundays and feast days?”
I think Akiba Drumer plays an important role to tell the readers that losing faith equals to death. People like Akiba Drumer lose their faith when they start to believe that it is impossible to escape the evil of the concentration camp so they eventually won’t have the will to survive. "It was impossible to raise his morale. He didn't listen to what we told him. He could only repeat that all was over for him, that he could no longer keep up the struggle, that he had no strength left, no faith."
Elie’s experience in the hospital shows that it was difficult to trust anyone in the concentration camp. When one of the prisoner advices Elie to escape the hospital before there was another selection, Elie doubts his purpose and does not know who to believe.
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My Question: what is the significance of this quote?
"'Shall I still be able to use my leg?' He was no longer smiling. I was very frightened. He said: Do you trust me, my boy?' I trust you absolutely, Doctor.'"
Richard Sun
Question: Akiba Drumer lost his faith in god and he doesn't pass both selections. What is Akiba Drumer's death's significance?
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I think the significance of Akiba Drumer's death is that losing faith equals to death. When Akiba started to believe that the Hitlers were going to eventually kill all of them, marks the end of his life because he no longer have the will to survive.
Elie Wiesel had to have a operation on his foot. He made it sound that it was very serious, like that me might be ampuatated and never walk again. But instead, the doctor just poked a hole and squeezed the puss out. Do you think Wiesel was still scared after that he would not be able to live again?
I knew a rabii...He was always praying....He recited entire pages from the TAlmud, arguing with himself, asking and answering himself endless questions. One day, he said to me: "It's over. God is no longer with us."
So even someone who tries so hard to keep the faith can fail. What is the significance of this.
Adam: I think Elie's father is either also losing his faith in God, or simply feels that the old traditions will not hold here. I think Elie feels a "great void" open in him because he is truly defying God, and truly losing belief.
Question:
"I began to laugh. I was happy. I felt like kissing him. At that moment, the others did not matter! They had not written me down." [page 72 big book]
What do you think this quotes signifies?
Adam: On the day of Atonement Elie chose to eat instead of fast. He chose to do this because the little bit of string connecting him and his faith was breaking so he felt that he had every right to disobey his faith. He did not care anymore for his faith because of all the pain and torture he has witnessed. He questions why God would do such a thing and that he is more powerful then God. He believes his future is in his hands and God is not needed.
The part “And I nibbled on the crust of bread. Deep inside me I felt a great void open inside me.” In this part after he chose to ignore the normal ritual of fasting he felt a hole open somewhere inside him. The hole is the missing presence of God in him because he is slowly distancing himself from God.
What is the significance of the knife and spoon that Elie’s father passes down to him?
In this section, we read that Elie is really beginning to lose his faith. His innocence being torn part to part from seeing more and more horrific images. He claims that he's seen a devouted rabbi also lose his faith. I think because Elie is losing his own faith, he's trying to make others accompany him as well.
Frank: I do not think that Elie is scared, since he has lost his faith. Elie was a devout Jew, which means his religion was an important part of his life. So whe he lost his faith, he basically lost himself, he was not Elie anymore. So i do not think that he cares whether he lives or not anymore, since he does not care where he goes in the afterlife.
Robert
I think the quote holds great significance. Firstly, it was spoken by a person in the infirmary who was suffering greatly from dysentery. This in istelf holds significance because the person with dysentery has already lost all his hope and faith. Maybe this represents what will eventually happen to everyone else no matter what happens in the concentration camps, no matter how long they manage to survive. Also, it shows how the people are losing faith completely. They even believe more in their enemy then they do in their own God; they say their enemy has kept more promises than their God. It also shows how much they have changed in the little time that they have spent in the concentration camps. Before, they wouldn't have even thought of questioning God, but their plight has dehumanized them into people who don't follow their religion anymore. Forgetting about their religion was a major theme in this chapter; there are many instances when Wiesel shows how he has lost his faith. In the beginning of the chapter, he says he did not fast during Yom Kippur, and he turned this into an act of rebellion against his God. Would you willingly defy your God if you were in his place?
Also, they forgot to say Kaddish for Akiba Drumer when he fell victim to selection. If they had been devout Jews like they had been before, they probably wouldn't have forgotten.
My Question
"Deep inside me, I felt a void opening." (pg 69, big book)
What does this mean? What is this void that Wiesel speaks of?
to adam: I think the void was the one that came when he finally broke with God, because he is, probably for the first time in his life, ignoring the fast.
Mine: The part where Elie says "Praised be Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine altar?" really scares me, because he has this wicked sarcasm that cuts through and chills your bones.
Once Eli had forgotten to say the Kaddish for the man, is it now the time when faith and religion have no impact on them anymore, and that it is pbasiclly every man for himself now.
Adam: I think his father did not let him fast mainly because they are already so hungry and near straving point and fasting would just be a faster and more cruel way to die.
Adam:
The father did not let Eliezer fast is because his father lost faith in god. Eliezer's father thinks that survival is the top priority now, and that his faith in god isn't as important as now. What I found interesting in the quote was when he said "a great void open inside me." Eliezer basicly has no more possesions on him anymore. The only thing he has left is the faith in god, but when he didn't fast he loses his faith and there is nothing much left in him. From this point on Eliezer is just a human body with nothing inside.
On page 71, (small book) it says "'Look, take this knight,' he said to me. 'I don't need it any longer. It might be useful to you. And take this spoon as well. Don't sell them. Quickly! Go on. Take what i'm giving you!' The inheritance." It implies that his father was going to die. However, his father does not die and escaped the second selection. What is the signifigance of this ironic scene and what do you think Elie learns from it?
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Jasmine: I think the significance that they forgot to say the Kaddish is that they have begun to care more for their own survival than the well being of friends.
“I’ve got more faith in Hitler than in anyone else. He’s the only one who’s kept his promises, all his promises, to the Jewish people.”
Elie’s neighbor says this because he is indicating that all the Jews are going to die in the end. That was what Hitler has promised, to kill the Jews. His neighbor reminds Elie of the conditions they are in, and reminds Elie of how they are on their own, God isn’t there to help them. Elie has already begun to lose his faith in God, but when his neighbor says this, he questions himself about God even more.
Adam: I agree with Richard. I think that Eliezer's health is top priority; however, i disagree in that Eliezers father has given up faith. I think that he still believes in his god and still has faith; however, he believes that Eliezer needs to eat to stay strong so that he is able to work and live in the concentration camp
Jasmine: I think they forgot because they no longer cared about anyone else but only for themselves.
Chuni:
Elie says this to show how it felt to live here. They had cleaned out the block to make it seem like what lived here was men, not a bunch of dirty animals, but Elie says this because they had not treated them like men, instead, they were treated like slaves, like animals.
Jasper,
The "void" opening inside of him was the heaviness of guilt. He knew that he should have fasted, but he went against it.
I assume that when you have done something that you had promised yourself not to do, you get this sickening feeling in your gut once you have done so.
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My question:
"It was cold. We got into our bunks. The last night in Buna. ONce more, the last night. The last night at home, the last night in the ghetto. The last night in the cattle car, and, now, the last night in Buna. How much longer would ourlives be lived from one "last night" to the next?"
Whoa, look at all the "nights" in this passage. Does this have any meaning to the title of the novel? What does the term "Night" signify as the title anyways? Does it have any relation to this passage?
Chuni:
Eliezer said this when the Russians were approaching and the head of the block told them to clean the block so that the liberating army would “realize there were men living here and not pigs.” I think Eliezer said this because he didn’t think that they were “men,” they were being treated like trash by the SS officers. He doubted the fact that they were men. They were dehumanized the moment they entered the camp. They were like pigs and they couldn’t decide their fate. They lost their identity and were called numbers instead of names. The significance of this is that the German have been treating the Jews terribly that the Jews didn’t even realize that they were actually human beings. I think it is pretty creepy that one can’t distinguish oneself between a pig and a human.
on page 67 in the big book, it says "why, but why should i bless Him? every fiber in me rebelled. because He caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because He kept six crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath and the Holy Days?"
Does Elie hate God? Does he even believe if there is a God out there? What is the significance of this part, and what does it show the concentration camp is doing to him?
Elie's father did not let him fast because he, like many others in the concentration camps, had lost faith in his God. He thinks that God has abandoned them and that He is allowing all the merciless acts to be inflicted upon them. Now, instead of being the devout Jew he used to be, he puts survival as his top priority. As long as he survived the ordeal, he did not care about disobeying his duties as a Jew. This shows how much their life in concentration camps have changed their life in such a short amount of time.
Reuben:
I think the significance of the spoon that Elie's father gave him was that usually when your parents pass away, they leave you your inheritance. Elie probably would have got a pretty big inheritance if the Nazi hadn't come and ruined his life. Instead, all his father could give him was a spoon. The situation show how desperate they both were. His dad was desperate to leave Elie with something, but all he had to offer were a knife and a spoon.
Another significance is that a spoon and a knife were the best inheritance Elie could get in a situation like that. His inheritance would actually help him. If his father had given him a spoon and knife under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be much use. But, in a concentration camp, a spoon might help Elie get extra ration of food, and a knife is always useful.
pg 75 of big book
Elie said "How kindly they treated me. Like an orphan. I thought: Even now, my father is helping me."
What did he mean when he said his father was helping him?
On p. 84 of the bigger book asks "So we were men after all?", what makes Eliezer say this and why? What's the significance?
First of all, the conditions in the concentration camps including medical treatment, nutrition, and living environment are poor. Even animals are treated better than the prisoners. In Night, a major theme is dehumanization and degradation. Eliezer believes that the Germans look down and take advantage on the Jews, because Adolf Hitler is their backbone to support them. This quote supports the theme, because Eliezer is certain about the Germans’ attitude of degrading the Jews to show that they are pure and superior. Eliezer loses his identity as a devout, religious believer of the Jewish faith, because now he is dehumanized and his thinking is more bitter and sarcastic. I think when the prisoners were given numbers instead of names, Eliezer already loses his identity and has fall into the Germans’ psychological trap.
finally the liberation army arrived at Burna and the Jews are close to freedom. They were all exacuted from the camps. Hours before the liberation army they cleaned the floors to show that man lived there not animals, however why did Elies ask "so we were man after all?" why is he unsure about themselves being men?
Richard:
Akiba Drumer lost his faith in god and he doesn't pass both selections. What is Akiba Drumer's death's significance?
I think Akiba Drumer's death is significant because it tells everyone to teaches the other people in the camp to not lose faith, and to continue to fight for their freedom.
my question:
"And my father? Suddenly I remembered him..." (p. 67 small book)
What is the significance of this quote? Did he become a completely different person?
Matt,
I think Eliezer is happy that his father wasn’t dead but it must be awkward giving the inheritance back to his father; that’s ironic. This may foreshadow that his father is going to die. Eliezer learns that there might still be hope for them.
“Were there still miracles on this earth?”(page76 big book)
He Still sort of cling to God.
In this chapter, Elie began to lose his faith in God. Akiba Drumer, had completely lost his faith, thinking that he wont get rescued from the concentration camp. A a result, he didn't pass both elections, and get executed.
What is the author trying to say?
RICHARD:
I think Akiba Drumer's death signifies that losing faith is equal as death at the concentration camp. When you lost the hope of getting rescued, you lost your sense of survival.
(pg 73 of the small book) "Poor Akiba Drumer, if he could have gone on believing in God, if he could have seen a proof of God in this Calvary, he would not have been taken by the selection. But as soon as he felt the first cracks forming in his faith, he had lost his reason for struggling and had begun to die."
This passage is saying that religious beliefs provide hope for people to live. Indeed, but hasn't Wiesel already lost his faith? And his struggle for survival is greater than ever. Isn't the author contradicting himself then?
Jasmine:
They were so tired and struggling with just surviving everything that they didn't ever sit down to think that they had promised to say the Kaddish; or they couldn't because they were focused on keeping themselves alive.
Adam:
The void is when Elie finally separates from his belief in God's mercy. Before, he clung desperately to that one last string of hope; now, when he disobeys the fasting tradition on purpose, he is breaking ties with a God whom he feels does not care about him anymore.
In this chapter, Elie began to lose his faith in God. Akiba Drumer, had completely lost his faith, thinking that he wont get rescued from the concentration camp. A a result, he didn't pass both elections, and get executed.
What is the author trying to say?
The author is trying to tell us that if one is faithful and still has hope, they would have a better chance of surviving. Ellie didn't believe so much in God, but he remained very hopeful that he would be rescued, so he treated his body well. That let him pass both selections.
My question:
On page 74, The Hungarian Jew said, "You mustn't rejoice too soon, my boy. There's selection here too. More often than Outside. Germany doesn't need sick Jews. Germany doesn't need me. When the next transport comes, you'll have a new neighbor. So listen to me, take my advice: get out of the hospital before the next selsction!"
Is the Jew trying to get rid of Ellie, or was he telling the truth?
As the days go by in the concentration camp, more and more people are sent to the crematory. As this happens, Elie’s faith in God declines. Elie did not completely lose faith yet he blames God for everything that has happened: “Why, but why should I bless Him? In every fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits? Because He kept six crematories working night and day, on Sundays and feast days? Because in His great might He has created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many factories of death?” Elie rebels against God by refusing to fast on the day of Yom Kippur, because he believes that “there was no longer a reason to fast.” However, a Jew, Akiba Drumer loses his faith completely. His death reveals how important it is not to lose faith in God and in yourself.
Bess: pg 75 of big book
Elie said "How kindly they treated me. Like an orphan. I thought: Even now, my father is helping me." What did he mean when he said his father was helping him?
My response: They pitied him, for what he was going through- the sure knowledge of the death of his father. Because they pitied him, they were nicer to him. They pitied him because of what his father was going through, so in a way, his father did something to make them be nicer to him. I think that’s what Elie meant when he said that his father was helping him.
robert: The sick man is pretty much doomed to die... he's lost all hope in life. His attitude and outlook is extremely gloomy: "Don't let yourself be fooled with illusions. Hitler has made it very clear that he will annihilate all the Jews before the clock strikes twelve" (pg 76, small book). Since he's going to die soon, in a sense, Hitler has killed him. I think he thinks that since he himself is going to be dead, why wouldn't the rest of the Jews die also? Up to his death, Hitler has been murdering and murdering Jews. I don't think the sick man sees any reason for Hitler to stop. The man's negative outlook and looming death only throws him further into the belief that Hitler will annihilate the whole race.
Even though Eliezer is starting to reject god and all the practices, do you think he can reject it completely? Does the religion still have some power over him?
Response to my quote:
I think that the quotes shows how the concentration camp is altering Elie's personality. The concentration camp is mainly made up of restrictions and limits; it's what slowly eats a person from the inside [psychologically]. Elie is trapped in the concentration camp, and he is slowly becoming selfish- not just him everyone else too. He only cares for his own survival. I believe that God has made us with this trait built in because if none of us are selfish, then we can't survive in the world.
Another thing I noticed is people "losing faith" in the book. Although Elie blames God for his merciless actions, I think it is wrong to do so. Elie needs to be independent instead of always thinking that God will help him and keep him safe.If he was overly protected by God, then he cannot survive in such a harsh world. I believe that all of this is a lesson to be learned.
Haley: I think the author is trying to tell us that a person's patience has a limit. After any person waits long enough, his/her patience WILL come to an end- all humans are like that.
Ted Wu:
I think the author says this because he wants to emphasize that the SS- officers had treated them as animals and not as humans. They have taken away their basic right to own property, or even to live!
To Chuni:
This quote to me has a very strong meaning. "So we were men after all". It is significant because after all that had happened: forced labor, bad hygiene, the Germans still wanted to cover up everything and act like nothing had happened. Tried to act like the concentration camp was just a big hotel where "men" had actually lived at. Unfortunately, they did not evacuate the prisoners in the hospital, because if they did, the secrets of the camps would not have been revealed [so quickly].
Question:
Do you think "three days after he had gone, we forgot to say the Kaddish" symbolizes or foreshadows anything? Do you think that it foreshadows the suffering of Eliezer? Or do you think it is just a symbolism of something important in the novel?
Chuni: Eliezer is being sarcastic here. The line spoken by the head of the block is ironic: "So that they'll realize there were men living here and not pigs" (80, small book).
They were never treated like people at the concentration camps. Even animals were treated better than they were. Eliezer's mocking the head of the block, like "So now you're calling us men, when you have treated us worse than animals?"
james-Does Elie hate God? Does he even believe if there is a God out there? What is the significance of this part, and what does it show the concentration camp is doing to him?
Maybe he does hate God. Yes, I think Elie still sees God's presence, but he no longer has faith in him. He does not pray and does not fast, as a sign of rebellion. Because of the regulations in the concentration camp, it is completely changing his attitude and personality.
Adam:
The main reason why i think Eliezer father didn't let him fast because Eliezer was already hungry and they needed the energy to work, they also had selection and if Eliezer was to weak then he could have been selected so his father wanted to prevent it from happening.
While Eliezer was consuming the bread he felt " a great void open inside [him]"( 66 small book). I think this passage symbolizes that Eliezer does not believe in god anymore. Use to Eliezer would follow the customs and pray but now he does not and he doesn't believe in god either so a part of his old life has been taken away. Praying and customs did take up a lot of his life, it was like a part of him and now he does not believe or follow the customs, so there's something missing in his life.
Question:
After the selection, their head black comforted them saying "nothing is going to happen."(pg. 69 small book) Why did their head block try to comfort them even though everyone knew their death? Their head block also tried to give them advice before the selection, why did he do that? Why does their head block care about what happens to them?
“What are You, my God?” I thought angrily.”
“Why, but why would I bless Him? Every fiber in me rebelled. Because He caused thousands of children to burn in His mass graves? Because He kept six crematoria working day and night, including Sabbath and the Holy Days? Because in His great might, He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many other factories of death? How could I say to Him: Blessed be Thou, Almighty, Master of the Universe, who chose us among all nations to be tortured day and night, to watch as out fathers, out mothers, our brothers end up in the furnaces? Praised be Thy Holy Name, for having chosen us to be slaughtered on Thine altar?”
Those two quotes above differ greatly from these (in the beginning of the novel):
“By day I studied Talmud and by night I would run to the synagogue to weep over the destruction of the Temple.”
“I continued to DEVOTE myself to my studies, Talmud during the day and Kabbalah at night.”
Elie used to be a devoted Jew that studied the Talmud and Kabbalah, but now he is questioning God. He is angry at God for having the Jews be the “chosen ones.”
What exactly made him change?
"Why, but why would I bless him [God]? Every fiber in me rebelled.(67 big book)
Eliezer said this during Rosh Hashanah, which meant that it was the end of that year. The quote showed that Eliezer, after his long time in concentration camp, had lost all hopes to live. He refused to see God as hope. Eliezer even wants to rebel against God, which showed how depressed he is.
Will Eliezer regain his faith and believe in God once again?
“Why, but why should I bless Him? In every fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits? Because He kept six crematories working night and day, on Sundays and feast days? Because in His great might He had created Auschwitz, Birkenau, Buna, and so many factories of death?” (pg 64 small book)
“It’s the end. God is no longer with us.” (pg 73)
What do you think these quotes mean? How does the first one relate to the second one? I think that this, again, shows the theme of losing faith in God and the lost of hope. The relationship between the first and the second quote, I think is that after they start to doubt their God, they’re afraid that their God has left them. This is shown when the man says that “God is no longer with them”. Or the second quote could show that the lost of faith isn’t a process that only Elie’s going through. Rather, it’s something a lot of the Jews are going through. But in the end, will they regain their faith?
Another interesting thought that occurred to me is, did the Germans do this on purpose? Did they just want to exterminate the PEOPLE who believed in Judaism, or Judaism itself the RELIGION?
"Why should I bless Him? In ever fiber I rebelled. Because He had had thousands of children burned in His pits?..."
"I no longer accepted God's silence. As I swallowed my bowl of soup, I saw in the gesture an act of rebellion and protest against Him."
Now, Elie does not only lose faith in God, but also starts questioning God and rebelling against Him. He does not fast when he is supposed to, and he doubts God. There are many examples Elie gives of the prisoners who loses faith and dies, which proves that faith is very important and it is what keeps the prisoners alive. I think the thing that keeps Elie moving is the fact that he does not want to separate from his father.
To Robert:
It shows that the Jew that was saying yhis was a ignorant person. he believed in the person that was going to kill them all.
The character of Akiba Drumer is rather saddening. He doesn't appear much in the book - I vaguely remember twice - once, a while after they first arrived at the concentration camp. It is a place where his faith - the Jewish faith - does not survive as well. This character tries to find a way, an excuse of the reason why God is not salvaging him, and others from the hard labour and many tormenting deaths. The second is when he had been selected for the crematories, and he asks his friends to say the Kaddish three days later, for that it is when he is to die, but instead, because of all the work they do, they forget to say the Kaddish for him - forget about him altogether.
I think Akiba Drumer probably represents a typical Jew in the Holocaust - starting out as a normal, everyday Jew who went to the synagogue once a week and prayed during all the times, to seeing how his religion - what's been a part of him all these years, since he was little - all his beliefs being torn right in front of his eyes, and finally to completely giving up on Judaism and himself altogether and being sent to the gas chambers. He is a simple character - you don't know much about him, and he is only described about twice (I think) yet you sympathise with him - and realise what crisis he is facing.
I think that them forgetting to say the Kaddish for him is really big, because it's like completely forgetting a promise to a good friend - and specially, in this case, a promise on his deathbed. It shows the gradual dehumanisation of them - they no longer care or remember those close to them, but completely forget about them, due to a couple of days of hard work, abuse, and less food.
Kimberly:
Elie changed so much because of the harsh treatment and cruelty at camp. Ever since he arrived at Auschwitz, he was forced to work, tortured, and starved; he didn't receive any mercy or kindness. Additionally, he witnessed the heatless murder of thousands of babies in the crematorium. This made him question the existence of his "merciful" God. His experiences at camp let him realize how cruel the world can be. He understood that although the Jews did nothing to deserve the harsh treatment, they can't do anything about it but pray to God, who won't do anything to help them. This realization caused him to conclude that praying to God was pointless, so he became angry at God for wasting so much of his time used for worship.
My Question:
On page 81 of the big book, the patients in the infirmary tell Elie that "all the patients will be finished off on the spot and thrown into the furnaces," but they actually got liberated by the Russians. Either Hitler lied to the patients at the infirmary, or the patients lied to Elie. Why?
On page 80 of the small book, Why doesn't the people stay? They already said "For the liberating army." Why didn't Elie stay on the hosptital or go back to the hospital?
ADAM:
On Yom Kipper, The Day of Atonement, Eliezer didn’t fast. Why do you think his father did not let him fast?
“And I nibbled on my crust of bread.
Deep inside me, I felt a great void open inside me.”(Page 69 on the newer book)
What does this passage mean?
To the Jews, fasting was a way of showing your devotion to God. It showed that you were willing to go through whatever to please God. Now that Elie was losing faith in God, he also started to not care about the religious rituals, such as fasting. During Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah,Elie started to show his doubt in God and in his religion. He started to mock God and the way He treats his "chosen people." I think this is a turning point in the story because in the beginning of the book, Elie was a very devoted Jew who always went to the synagouge to pray and he studied the Torah thoroughly. Now after what he has gone through and what he has seen in the concentration camp, he completely became a different person and didn't care about God and his religion anymore.
Jasmine: "In three days I shall no longer be here . . . . Say the Kaddish for me." Elie's father said that on page 73 (small book) before an ambulance was going to send him to the hospital. Then it says, "These were terrible days. We received more blows then food; we were crushed with work. And three days after he had gone we forgot to say the Kaddish."
What is the significance of "We forgot to say the Kaddish?"
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I think that the significance was that Elie and the others have start to care more about survival than others. Now that he is in a camp, survival is more important than worrying about others.
My question: “And I, mystic former mystic, was thinking: Yes, man is stronger greater than God. When Adam and Eve deceived You, You chased them from the paradise….
But look at these men whom you have betrayed, allowing them to be tortured, slaughtered, gassed, and burned, what do they do? They pray before You! They praise You name!” (big book, 67,68)
Reading this quote, it looks like Elie has a hatred towards God, but is it really true? Does he really hate God now, or is it because he’s in a camp and has gone crazy?
In this chapter it shows Elie had totally lost his faith to god. he thought that the god had abondom him because the god is not helping him.
In concentration camp Jews were treated very bad, they treated as a dog. but at the end of the chapter "Were we men then?"
what is the meaning of this quote?
“Look, take this knife,” he said to me. “I don’t need it any longer. It might be useful to you. And take this spoon as well. Don’t sell them. Quickly! Go on. Take what I’m giving you!” The inheritance. “Don’t talk like that, Father.” (I felt that I would break into sobs.) “I don’t want you to say that. Keep the spoon and knife. You need them as much as I do. We shall see each other again this evening, after work.” P.71
Is this false hope that Eliezer holds on to? How is the “inheritance” important? What does Elie’s father think will happen? Has his father given up?
pg. 63 to 80 question
“Poor Akiba Drumer, if he could have gone on believing in God, if he could have seen a proof of God in this Calvary, he would not have been taken by the selection. But as soon as he felt the first cracks forming in his faith, he had lost his reason for struggling and had begun to die.” (Wiesel 73) Why does Wiesel seem to believe strongly in God in this passage? Does he get his strength for the hard work from believing in God? Why, then, does he doubt God’s sense of mercy on the Jewish people when things seem to be hopeless?
Adam: Maybe the "void" was where his religious beliefs used to be? Like, for example, after you've lost something you lived with for most of your life, you would feel an emptiness where it used to be. Forgetting to say the Kaddish, which was something important to the Jews, means that Elie's religious beliefs were pretty much destroyed by concentration camp life.
KK:
I think this quote represents the selfishness Elie has developed since he arrived at the concentration camp. He no longer cares [as much] for the lives of others, but rather puts his own survival first. Elie may sympathize a little, but in the end, his happiness for staying alive prevails over all. At the concentration camp, the concept of "survival of the fittest," or Darwinism becomes part of everyone's thoughts.
"The last night in Buna. Yet another last night. The last night at home, the last night in the ghetto, the last night in the train, and, now, the last night in Buna. How much longer were our lives to be dragged out from one 'last night' to another?"
What is the significance of this quote and the author's use of the word "night"? Why does he repeatedly use "night," instead of, for example, "day?"
I didn't like this chapter at all. Things just seem to get worse and worse. Then again, there are always those time where soup is thicker. (I think that means it's better, sort of, right?)
My question is so: what is the significance of cleaning up the camp area before evacuating the place? The place has never been cleaned before, and although the officers said that they wanted to make it seem like people lived here, I think there is a reason otherwise. Also, Elie wonders if this makes them "men" again. Is there significance in this as well?
LIANG:
I agree with you, the two quotes both relate to the theme of losing faith. The first quote shows that Elie doubts the existence of god. The second quote shows that the Jews lost faith in god already. The only small difference between these two quotes is that in the first quote, Elie hasn’t completely lost his faith in god; he only doubts the existence. The Jews might regain their faith, but only under one condition: if they are freed from the concentration camps. Otherwise, I don’t think that the Jews will regain their faith because there is barely any chance that anyone will get out of the concentration camp alive. I think that the Germans wanted to exterminate the Jews more than the Judaism. Though, exterminating the Jews is basically exterminating Judaism.
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In the earlier part of the story, the dentist that was going to take out Elie's golden crown, let him pass. When the Dr. Mengele was doing a selection, he let Elie pass too.
The doctors seem to treat Elie better than the other Jews. Why?
Eliezer is no longer a believer; he had turned himself against God. Where is God? He asked. I’ve noticed how he doubts His mercy, and how the rest of the Jews praise him when He had put them in such a dreadful situation. As my own experience, I would have doubt His merciful. Sometimes there is a reason for something to happen. From a Christian point of view, God did not do this nor did He want some things to happen to us. It is us human that made each other like this, but we could pray and still have our faith in him. This is something I know, and had experience. In Eliezer’s situation, it’s much harsher than anything else. Little by little, I’ve noticed Eliezer change even more once he had ceased to be a believer. He no longer follows any services or festivals that they held, nor did he wish his father a happy new year because he does not believe. Though I would have agreed with him on this, but sometimes you should look at things other way. I believe he would be able to open up his eyes and truly see.
(p.67) And my father? Suddenly I remembered him. How would he pass the selection? He had aged so much...
What does this show about Eliezer?
Had he forgotten about his father?
Will he forget his father existence if he did not remember?
In this chapter I can easily see that they are losing hope, but them, themselves are trying to give themselves hope. In the big book, page 76, the rabbi said, “It’s over. God is no longer with us.” Even the rabbi says like, the reader can tell by this chapter that their hope is gradually decaying.
Also in this chapter, I have seen many “Everything will be all right”, this sentence have came reality in my mind. Also I started to think whether this sentence is a good thing or not. Would everything be all right to them? Or is it just an encouraging sentence?
In the big book, page 73, Blockalteste said, “What is it now? Perhaps you think I’m lying? I’m telling you once and for all: nothing will happen to you! Nothing! You just like to wallow in your despair, you fools!”
Why did he say that and became angry? Why did he say like that? What significance is that about?
james-Does Elie hate God? Does he even believe if there is a God out there? What is the significance of this part, and what does it show the concentration camp is doing to him?
A: Yes, Elie does feel that God has abandoned him and caused him to suffer. He feels that it is useless to pray to Him anymore, as it has been of no use, and no help has been given at all to him. As things get worse and worse in the camp, he struggles to maintain his faith in God, a faith that was once stable and unshakable. However, experiencing the many horrors of the Holocaust has greatly changed his view towards Him, and he resents how, according to what other Jews say, God has purposely caused the misery of the Jews, and he feels that God is actually cruel.
Elie lost his innocence when he faced the terrors of concentration camps, and starts to question God’s existence. This contrasts greatly with the earlier Elie, who believed that God was omniscient and that God was good, and because God was everywhere, the world would logically be good to, but the Holocaust has caused him to rethink what he has been taught. If God was everywhere, why would there be places of pure evil, like concentration camps? I too, question the existence of an all-powerful being whom can control our lives, so I know how Elie must have felt at that time.
Q: Akiba Drumer had asked for his fellow Jews to pray for him when he dies, but the Jews forget about the importance for praying for a comrade during their bid for survival and doesn’t carry out the task they had promised. What does this show about the influence of religion to the Jews now? Why have they changed so?
Anthony:
I believe he had forgotten that they were men. I guess it's because they were so used to be called as numbers, and had forgotten who they really are. In the concentration camp, they were treated as animals. Now, that they were called men. It felt strange to have the memories of when they are still treated as human, or as man. This is also what makes them become if they had stay too long in the concentration camp. It make them forget their own identity, but thing as the way they were treated.
Kathy:
“And I, mystic former mystic, was thinking: Yes, man is stronger greater than God. When Adam and Eve deceived You, You chased them from the paradise….
But look at these men whom you have betrayed, allowing them to be tortured, slaughtered, gassed, and burned, what do they do? They pray before You! They praise You name!” (big book, 67,68)
Reading this quote, it looks like Elie has a hatred towards God, but is it really true? Does he really hate God now, or is it because he’s in a camp and has gone crazy?
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This hatred possessed by Elie towards God isn't going to last forever. He is just fed up with God making him suffer the pain at the concentration camp. At the concentration camp, he learns to become more pessimistic and emotional. In this time of his life, his emotions are more unstable, because he's at the age of adolescence. I don'think Elie forgot about faith in God, or else he wouldn't talk to God. If he talks to God, that means Elie still believes in the existence of God.I don't think he really hate God right now. I think it's because he has gone crazy. Everything is nightmare to him; everything is happening quickly. He thinks of this as a nightmare. He realizes how painful his life is right now. He couldn't really hate God, because he knows that without God, there wouldn't be the existence of anything. Everything is made by God.
adam: i think they didn't fast because they're already "fasting" every other day, so why did they even bother to do it on a holiday?
my question: does the faceless symbolize anything?
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